Pubs already ditching cigarette machines

Steve W - Pub numbers actually increased year-on-year between 2002 and 2006 inclusive, as did turnover which hit A FIVE-YEAR-PEAK immediately before July 2007 (source: The Publican). The German economy is deeper in recession than our own yet their pubs have weathered the storm easily, just as our own trade breezed through previous major recessions up until this one. Most other countries have much fairer smoking arrangements than the 5hittish Isles. The few that don't are busily amending and watering down their laws after their pubs & bars started closing (eg Portugal, Holland, Croatia)

Paul - it is no more illegal to give one of your customers a free cigarette than it is to give them a free pint - who told you that??

Pete - you're right, we have covered these points before, such as the pub trade 'carnage' (your words) starting long before the ban came into force (albeit at a slower rate). Look into the stats and see how many licensed premises there were in existence in, say, the 1980s and then come back and tell me the pub trade in the UK has only recently been shrinking? And you quote Germany - are you sure all the bars there are 'thriving', or is it just a subjective pool of bars that militantly opposed the ban? Leaving aside the fact that the German economy, overall, is much more bouyant than ours anyway. And how about all of the other countries in the world being hit by the recession? I suppose it's only the ones with smoking bans that are suffering and all the others are booming? No? Didn't think so...

Colin1 - well, I agree with your most recent post, but that's not what you were saying in the post I replied to!!

steve w nice to see you MANAGED to translate my post and add a few choice remarks, i hope you MANAGE your own place better and refrain from attacking the smokers among your customers

I suggest that some readers need to take some advice before they end up in court. The following statement was made: "You'd be better off keeping a couple of 'free' packets behind the bar and offering a free cigarette to any customer who's desperate - that'll score many more service brownie-points..." To give free cigarettes out to a customer is illegal. To sell single cigarettes is illegal. Far too many people including MP's, BHF, and ASH representatives talking about a subject that will affect over 500 peoples livelihoods that they know little about.

Steve W - We've already covered these points. The British pub-trade carnage began a full year before the recession which affected other businesses. Even longer in Ireland and Scotland. Yet in recession-hit Germany, where they successfully fought their smoking ban, pubs and bars have continued to thrive.

We still have to go to pubs. But these days? Pubs are getting 'out of fashion' Teenagers are learning to drink at home first (used to be the pub) then go to clubs You accepted the smoking ban. Your loss. Your industry died as a result. Not of smoking. But the lack of social acknowledgement. Socially, it may be bad to 'smoke', but every single group of people who walked in your pub felt ... 'hey' I can take this home for cheaper prior to our clubbing That changed the landscape enjoy your landscape and now booze and fags are getting more and more expensive ...? welcome and try and anticipate more changes?

Steve,you miss the point ,my argument is its the government we all should be campaigning against,the Sb being one element, the others being over taxation and over regulation ,put together and we have 52 pubs closing per week,to much interfering to quick,now you tell me, which one,has NOT cost the average publican a fair whack of his income,

Laird - once I managed to translate your post into English I realised yours was even more twisted than Colin1's! So it was smokers alone who swayed a political result in Scotland? No wonder MPs are banning machines!!

stew w your just blowing smoke yourself when you quote such examples to critise anothers comment . just to add to another result of the smoking ban it was the smokers who got shot of labours rule in scotland as in the end it took only 25 smokers to desert labour and i am pleased to say i was one of them the ban like prohibition in the us will be ammended as more pubs etc continue to shut inspite of the paranoic banners who want to ban smoke,drink,free speech et al

Colin1 - so taking your logic, Woolworths closed because of the smoking ban did it? Department stores currently have the highest level of outlet closures of any business because of the smoking ban? A local, massive engineering company to me closed because of the ban? Banks got into major trouble, not because of their greed but simply because they couldn't smoke in their offices when doing deals? Your points about the tie argument are spot on but you then spoil it by clinging to your own single-minded alternative, simply replacing "tie" with "ban" in your arguments...

Jim the problem is ,a lot of licensees bought into the idea that the smoking ban would be a good thing,even though the data from Ireland told a different story,so the hid their collective thick heads in the sand waiting for the millions of promised non smokers to flood through their doors,[i believe there still waiting] meanwhile ,tied tenant kicked up a fuss about struggling to make a living, blaming everybody but the villains in parliament,who drove millions out of our pubs,all they did was to deflect the blame from these Cretans,which was manna from heaven to nu labour ,because they can say its the tie not us gov, that's to blame ,the tie is a problem ,though interestingly was not really a problem pre smoking ban and the 20% increases in beer duty in three years ,except for a few,tied people,the tie campaign only plays into the governments hands,that's where the fight should be,not silly small demos at parliament ,by a deluded group led by bigger deluded groups,only a united trade can we expect to fight back,and before the tie brigade,respond,they should think on this why have over 150 working men's clubs closed in the last year, who get massive discounts,and are not tied ,add to that bingo halls that have closed en mass for the same reason ,hint, smoking ban and taxes

Soapy - fewer pubs is actually NOT better for me, or for any 'surviving' licensee - we all need competitors around us to maintain the 'atmosphere' of any locality; that's just an easy-quotable accusation that looks good but doesn't really mean anything. And I've never 'conceded' the ban as a main reason for the industries woes? I've agreed it's one of the many reasons but I've also always said it's vastly overplayed...

here we go again just another nail in the demise of our pubs and now were debating if it is a good thing or not.. i suggest that any servic e that is removed for whatever reason is seen as a victory for the banners among us.. the fact is that the smoking ban is the main reason for all our woes and the sooner this law is altered we should oppose any act that that threatens the trade instead of the petty squabbling we indulge in THE SMOKING BAN IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE PROBLEM and i ask all to stop dancing to the banners tune after all 10 million smokers know the reason for whats going on LISTEN TO THEM FOR A CHANGE

I remind you that part of the argument for smoke free pubs was a level playing field between pubs because there were not any smoke free pubs so clearly there was fear regarding smoking pubs, whether or not you fear them personally is really not the issue some publicans did, indeed my comment was meant to illustrate that wet lead smoking pubs that do not serve food or admit minors are not a threat to publicans who wish to serve food and cater for families I am not suggesting that all pubs go back to smoking pubs at all just that there be the choice of smoking or non smoking pubs for which there is a strong market as over 50% of the pub going public smoked in pubs prior to the ban as a publican you know this as well as I. On family occasions I think that smokers would use catering pubs but as a matter of choice if out without their families they would use wet led pubs where they can smoke, even as an engineer I can see the two are not mutually exclusive, that they can live side by side with both niches making profits. If an engineer with no knowledge of the pub trade can work that out why haven't you? You say do not wish to descend into a smoking debate, personally I'll go where ever the debate leads, the smoking ban and the demise of the pub are indivisible, the smoking ban is one of the main reasons for the loss of so many pubs, a point you conceded a long time ago while blaming the recession and painting your peers as idiots who should not be running pubs, but then you can afford to, fewer pubs means more customers for you so a debate on smoking or a successful amendment to the health act is not in your best interest however much it would benefit the pub trade so how about a level playing field Steve?

I got rid of my machine some 3 years ago,like Pete says there's baccy barons on every street corner,theres even quite a few corner shops selling them,

Pete - I don't think pubs have ever made enough from machines to make them any more than an add-on service? Whilst I can sympathise with the comment on staff nicking cigarettes behnd the bar (I think I've even made the same comment myself before!) it's hardly a reason not to do it, as that's a problem with your staff, not the digarettes! Mark - I think newsagents use cigarettes simply as a way to get people in the door, in the hope they'll impulse-buy something else while they're there? Soapy, I don't wish this to descend into yet another smoking ban thread, so please be specific if you reply to this, but can I just clarify that I have NEVER had any fear of my competitors, and that's where the big difference lies between the way I view the trade and the way a lot of smokers view it. I don't see a pub as a 'smoking venue'; if choice ever did return then I wouldn't view my competitors on a smoke/smoke-free basis, I'd view them on who was offering more than me in terms of their whole customer offering...

If you sell enough cigs now, then put the machine behind the bar for staff to use on behalf of the customer. This way you still sell them, and the staff cant nick them.

Is any pubco or collective going to take Barnsley Primary Care Trust to task and ask them for some evidence to back up their drivel?. We have already lost thousands of pubs and are still losing them at the rate of 53 a week, its about time these destroyers of business were told to provide concrete evidence or shut up.

In all fairness I am surprised that pubs kept vending machines as long as they have, it has long been known by the smoking community that selling cigarettes for £6 a pack of 16 is a definite loser both for the purchaser and the vendor. While I would accept Steve's view of issuing freebies to smokers as charitable I would remind you that it is a charity that driven over 50% of most pubs clientel away and that it is another charity that is proposing to raise taxation and minimum pricing which will all but destroy what remains of his trade. Steve W. Has in the past mentioned that his own venue is doing very nicely, So if the wet lead pubs went smoking he really has nothing to fear from good honest competition that does not sell food, does not permit minors but utilises smoking staff for smokers and any non smoking adult who chooses to patronise such establishments that are clearly marked as such. these are two separate niches in the market one of which is not catered for. I am told Supply and demand makes for a successful business, the demand is there regrettably the supply is not and it is costing your industry dearly, Over 52 pubs a week, can you honestly say you can sustain such losses for an unknown and possibly extended period?

The reason nobody sells cigs over the bar is because the staff nick 'em, simple as. It's little wonder machine sales have taken a nosedive (along with general turnover) since pubs are no longer 'smoker-friendly'. Before the ban cigarette machines provided a healthy 'bonus' income. Of course it's absolute rubbish to say kids used the things. Why should they when every school in England has a tobacco baron selling them at 3-quid-a-pack?

Only hundreds of young people. My goodness at least the exageration has ceased. Or has it? where are the statistics to show that even one young person has taken up smoking from buying from machines. Therefore hundreds is the usual gross distortion we have come to love from our health police.Report in the news today saying that 20% of cigarettes consumed are smuggled into the country and sold on the black market. Will expect the health fanatics screaming for the blood of the border agency then? Ken Nason

I haven't sold cigarettes from my pub in over a year now - demand for them had fallen so much and, as Steve W says, we simply weren't making any money from them. They were offered purely as a service to customers, but as that requirement dwindled it made no sense to keep them any further. I'm amazed that newsagents make money from them anyway, let alone publicans. To make any decent profit for the retailer on cigarettes they'd have to be sold far above their current prices...

I know of quite a few pubs doing a roaring trade in contraband.

I think the last paragraph is the most pertinent - I don't know of any pub who actually made money from these things, they're just there as a service for customers? But the problem with that is that the customer usually thinks it's the licensee who dictates the extortionate prices, so what you think is an added service for your customers could actually be the opposite! You'd be better off keeping a couple of 'free' packets behind the bar and offering a free cigarette to any customer who's desperate - that'll score many more service brownie-points...