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Thu 9 September 2010

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How to... taste beer

9 July, 2009

Professional beer tasting might be the best job in the world, but it’s also one of your most important responsibilities, says Greene King in the first of a series of ‘how to’ guides

There are some pieces of advice that need a lot of hammering home to persuade people that a little chore is worth doing. Then there are some that probably don’t.

The advice that you should taste your beer every morning before opening undoubtedly falls into the second camp. This is the call to action from Greene King in this feature, the first of a series of ‘How To’ guides that will run in The Publican as part of Beer Matters, the initiative aiming to improve the on-trade’s knowledge of, and profits from, beer.

You should taste your beer before opening to ensure it is up to scratch, Greene King says. This quality control check will avoid customers being put off by a dodgy pint and make it more likely that they will come back to your pub. It is especially important with cask beer – as a live product, it continues to evolve and change in nature in its container.

Greene King head brewer John Bexon says there are several simple steps you should use to properly taste beer and a number of signs you should be looking out for to alert you to a problem. “All too often, licensees are not familiar with the beer they are selling,” he explains.

“They need to be, because quality control is so important.”

The film strip opposite shows Bexon demonstrating the process, which begins with taking a clean glass and filling it half-full. Then you should look at the beer. Is it clear, as it should be, or cloudy, which would indicate a potential problem?

Next, you should swirl the beer in the glass, and then take a good sniff to check the aroma. The gap left in the glass allows the aromas of the beer to circulate, something that is a big determining factor in taste.

Finally comes the drinking. Take a sip of the beer at first, and then take a bigger slurp over the entire tongue to really assess the taste. Make yourself aware of which parts of the tongue receive different elements of flavour by checking the diagram (right). For most beers, the really important part is found at the back of the tongue, where the bitterness receptors are.

This does not necessarily mean you have to swallow the beer. Even once it reaches this point of the mouth, you can train yourself to spit it out as you would wine in a wine tasting, Bexon says.

If your beer tastes sour or vinegary, this means it is almost certainly off, something that is generally caused by the beer having been on too long. Greene King recommends selling a full cask of beer within three days and not keeping it for any longer than that. If it tastes stale, that indicates it is going off.

If your tasting detects either of these problems (and it is much better that you do so, rather than having your customers do it for you!), stop selling it immediately, then determine the cause of the issue.

Greene King advises that in most cases, it will be either because the beer has been on too long or because of poor cellar hygiene, which can be remedied by better standards of cleaning.

If you don’t believe either of these reasons accounts for the problem, then seek advice by looking on www.cellardoctor.co.uk or speaking to your cellar services contact.

With practice, a licensee will be able to learn the individual taste characteristics for each beer they sell and make sure it tastes as its should, or is what brewers call “true to type”. For example, with Abbot Ale, you should be picking up masses of fruit character and maltiness. With Greene King IPA, there should be a very hoppy taste.

Bexon advises that you should be very familiar with the taste of your main beers, in order to be able to detect if they are not quite right. This is the reason why only licensees who truly know their stuff should be rotating large numbers of cask beers on a regular basis, or running ambitious beer festivals.

Ask the brewer for tasting notes. By using brand’s tasting notes – or the industry-wide tasting notes scheme Cyclops – you can brief yourself on what the beer should taste like.

Of course, being au fait with beer and what it should taste like will help you with talking confidently and making recommendations about your products to customers. If you’re feeling really confident, you could even create a special event to draw in trade by running tutored tastings for groups of customers.

Greene King says

John Bexon, Greene King’s head brewer, says: “Everyone in Greene King is obsessed with beer quality. This ranges from selecting only the very best-quality ingredients for brewing to ensuring that no beer leaves the brewery gates without our independent tasting panel first approving it.

“Beer tasting is one of the most important jobs in the brewery – and it should be one of the most important jobs in the pub too!

“As cask beer is a live product that continues to mature in the pub cellar, you are very much part of the brewing process. You should know all the principles of looking after cask beer, but just as importantly you should be able to taste it and tell whether it is in good condition. You should also teach your staff to be taste experts so they can identify any problems before the beer goes on sale, but also to talk up cask beer and use their knowledge to sell more.

“If beer matters to your business, so should daily beer tasting!”

CASE STUDY: The Old Tea Warehouse

Greene King managed pub the Old Tea Warehouse is found in the heart of London’s financial district and labels itself a “traditional pub for the modern world”. It serves a decent selection of cask and keg draught beers.

Manager Richard Woodger is one licensee who checks the taste of his beer before he opens up every day. He says: “There are three points the customer will consider when enjoying a beer – appearance, temperature and taste.

“It is important to me to taste a sample of the beers every morning, as imperfect taste is the least obvious at the point of dispense and we pride ourselves on delivering the perfect pint every time.”

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Readers' comments

  • roger sanderson 13 August, 2009, 14:01

    This is a happy day, Ken. We are finally agreed on something, i.e. the impossibility of keeping Biggles happy in combination with other customers who actually know how real ale should be. That's why I make the obvious choice of selling beer as it is meant to be and leave the likes of Biggles to trouble others.

  • ken nason 13 August, 2009, 13:14

    Roger please read my post of 4th August and you will read my answer. Ken Nason

  • Shaun 12 August, 2009, 17:54

    Roger, I think Biggles has been brought down to Earth as he was last seen solo in his jalopy going uphill and down dale. But boy does he like it!

  • roger sanderson 11 August, 2009, 14:00

    I'll address my question of the 6th August solely to you Ken as Biggles seems to have flown off.

  • ken nason 10 August, 2009, 19:38

    Roger, please post the question as I cannot see where you asked ME anything.(my advancing years perhaps) Ken Nason

  • roger sanderson 10 August, 2009, 16:43

    And your answer to my question, Ken is . . . . . ?

  • ken nason 10 August, 2009, 13:23

    Roger at last! something you don't know! Ken Nason

  • roger sanderson 6 August, 2009, 16:06

    Neither Ken or Biggles managed to explain how a pub might satisfy the majority of customers who prefer their real ale to be served with the correct carbonation and at the right temperature, as well as those who, like Biggles, supposedly want it served so cold as to cause condensation on the glass and flat? Please tell because I really don't know!

  • ken nason 4 August, 2009, 11:45

    Roger, I am flattered that you are so obsessed with my good self but when exactly did you hear me support the virtues or desirability of "selling flat real ale at the temperature of lager". I am happy to bring a chuckle to your customers lives and I am sure that they have a great interest in what discussions their "gaffer" gets involved on this site. Ken Nason

  • Biggles 4 August, 2009, 08:59

    Roger , one word of advice, dont open a pub in Burton on Trent, to many consumers who know what they want and expect to get it , it takes all types you know , not just people who have to do it your way or no way.

  • roger sanderson 3 August, 2009, 12:35

    If you think the market wants flat real ale at the temperature of lager Biggles I suggest you and Ken try your luck in the real world and seek your fortunes by offering it. I pass your postings amongst my customers who really enjoy your comedy.

  • Biggles 31 July, 2009, 08:50

    Roger, the place was packed to the gunnals with profesional types all quaffing flat real ale. I even noticed a retired head brewer there enjoying a pint of so called "Burtons best". Can't get away from consumer power i guess, you know, give consumers what they want as against what you think they want. What this about "microwave salads" , is it a new concept you are launching , sounds like something from that "Fat Duck" chef, Bluementhal?.

  • ken nason 30 July, 2009, 18:44

    Biggles, I think that this is the joy of British beer, it's diversity. There is at least one for everyones taste. Whereas brews were designed for a regional taste buds and driven by what that customer group wanted(or were used to) we now have the marketeers telling us what we want and will like. I think that tetley cask and tetley smoothflow are a prime example of engineered beers.But as you say everyone to their own and the fact that I or you love a particular brew should not be used as a measure of what is right for someone else. Roger must train because he seems so insitant that everyone should follow only his interpretation of everything and that he feels that I particularily seem to be in need of his constant display of his supposed knowledge. Sad really but there you go.Happy flying BIggles.Ken Nason

  • Biggles 30 July, 2009, 15:08

    Ken, not too fond of flat tepid real ales, spent too much time on East Anglian airfields in Tolly Cobbold land. Did find the Bass quite good in Burton also the DBA which is a personal favourite, however do like a bit of life in my pint and served at cellar temp, to much 3rd rate tepid flat real ale about , but as they say, each to their own. Whats your opinion on "Tets" ( Tetleys) with a creamy head and chill in the delivery and whats your stance on "autobacks"? What's this about Roger doing training , how can I find out more, is there a web site?

  • roger sanderson 30 July, 2009, 12:20

    Training courses? Ken. I was merely answering Biggles question. I would be interested to know who suggested that Draught Bass and Burton Ale should be served flat. Some customers will fall for anything I suppose. Does this place do microwaved salads as well? A case of the blind leading the blind. I wonder how this 'recommended tavern' would satisfy a customer who actually wanted a pint of Bass served as the product is meant to be, i.e. at the right temperature and not flat ?

  • ken nason 29 July, 2009, 16:44

    Unfortunately Roger one cannot attain what one already has only improve it and that improvement cannot be achieved by attending one of your training courses.. Biggles you didn't say if you enjoyed the chilled flat beer(as a paying customer of course) and whether you would again return to this emporium of beer pulled from the cask. Ken Nason

  • roger sanderson 29 July, 2009, 14:38

    You see, Biggles, this is why these matters are best left to professionals. Without more detail it is difficult to be definitive, but I presume you saw beer being dispensed directly from the cask. If so, then no cooling can be taking place in pipes - which, of course, would be one method of chilling it on dispense. There are various methods of cooling beer in the cask, and if no cooling jacket was on the cask then I presume the beer was being cooled by an immersion cooler (similar but reverse of an immersion heater) cooling the beer inside the cask. However, storing cask beer in such a hostile environment always causes problems. Condensation on the glass would suggest the beer is being served far too cold. You can ask Ken what causes the beer to be flat because, although it's been a hard job, he now knows all about carbonation and the relevance of temperature to it. The two of you will soon be quite expert in the discipline.

  • Biggles 29 July, 2009, 08:47

    Roger, coonfused I am. Jumped off the train at Burton upon Trent last night ( the capital of world brewing Im told), to imbibe at a recommended tavern called The Coppers Arms. Well, the barrels where all stacked on the back fitting of the bar counter and included of couse draught Bass and Burton Ale. Though at ambiante temp , which was around 20c, the beers came out chilled with condensation on the glass, & flat , but never the less chilled. Im told that serving Bass & DBA flat is the given way, but how do they also get it chilled? Is this one of the many mysteries of life that only profesional publicans understand or is there someting more basic that I need to understand? Just how do you do this ?

  • ken nason 28 July, 2009, 18:44

    Aha Roger at last I see you have grasped what I said. I am glad you got it as you appear to be resorting to your final line of defence the critisism of inconsequential spelling mistakes.Ken Williams seems to have got there before you though possibly through morphing from Jim through Ron. Silly Billies. Ken Nason

  • roger sanderson 27 July, 2009, 18:32

    I'm obviously not in tune with your humour Ken. Is that "camelion" you refer to a cross between a camel and a lion. If you were meaning someone who is changeable or fickle I think you'll find it is spelt "chameleon". Education is a wonderful thing, and it's never too late to learn. Hope this helps.

  • roger sanderson 27 July, 2009, 13:53

    Ken, I'm afraid the more you post on this subject, the more your lack of understanding is apparent. You now say: "The effect of temperature is primarily on the action of fermentation not the amount of carbon dioxide". But the very essence of fermentation is yeast feeding on sugar to produce alcohol and CO2. The absorbtion of that CO2 gives beer its carbonation. If the temperature is not right then fermentation will neither produce the correct amount of CO2 nor will it be absorbed correctly by the beer. For the umpteenth time, Ken, the correct temperature is crucial to a beer's carbonation. It's a pity you are so reluctant to learn.

  • Kenneth Williams 27 July, 2009, 13:24

    What a carry on ken! Perhaps another reason you are unable to understand the facts is that you constantly refer to 'carbination' instead of 'carbonation'. I suppose that's the shortcoming of dictionaries, you need the correct spelling to determine the word's meaning.

  • ken nason 23 July, 2009, 18:22

    Now let me see.....Ronnie first I think.You appear to be a very wise person who can make crack judgements without a shred of factual information. You have my undying admiration and you really must share your abilities with we mere mortals who require at least some facts to base statements and decisions upon. I am sure talent must be saught by captains of industry.Jim lad, you seem to hold the same deductive powers. Incorrect facts are still incorrect even when presented by someone who thinks he is always preaching to those with a lesser level of knowledge and training. You know the sort. trainers who have only read the course notes the night before. This is on etrade where you are always learning.As to suggesting another trade I would have thought that would be quite evident to somone who cannot appreciate the customers perception(right or wrong) in a customer orientated business.You treat your customer with contempt at your peril in this trade in this day and age. Quite simple. So nip down to Rogers and have one of his perfect pints and report back to us lads.Ken Nason

  • ken nason 23 July, 2009, 18:10

    Roger my little camelion, I hav enever not understood I leave that to ones such as yourself. The salient points I have made, which as usual you either choose to ignore or fail to comprehend,regarding my definition of the use of "carbination" were precise and unambiguous. The effect of temperature is primarily on the action of fermentation not the amount of carbon dioxide. The volume of Co2 is the result not the primary. Cask conditioning (especially tap conditioning ) is the act of controling the produced levels of co2 contained within the beer from the secondry fermentation in the cellar so that optimum flavour and condition is achieved. This is where the cellermans skill comes into it's own not connecting up kegs.Perhaps now you have had it explained several time now it might just stimulate your understanding but I await the next word you will disect out of context.Ken Nason

  • roger sanderson 22 July, 2009, 15:51

    So now you better understand the meaning of the word 'carbonation' Ken which particular part of my phrase would you now wish to challenge. Just to remind you: "The relevance of temperature impacts upon the carbonation of the beer and its taste profile (and in the case of cask beer - its conditioning in the cellar)." For the benefit of those who argue about 'customer-power' let me reiterate. If I look after my beers correctly and am passionate about their quality and their consistency, and I am reassured by the very healthy level of trade I enjoy and the flattering comments I receive from my knowledgeable and appreciative customers I really have no time for amateurs. The fact that the likes of Biggles might want to exercise his option of spending his pound somewhere else is fine by me, and I am sure is fine by my valued customers. I must say I can barely contain my laughter at the thought of Biggles and Ken (if he were still a publican) entertaining each other all evening with a debate about a pint of cask ale which Biggles complains is flat because its tepid - while Ken counters with the statement that temperature has nothing to do with the carbonation of cask ale!

  • Jim 22 July, 2009, 13:38

    It is very obvious Roger knows what he is talking about with respect to the quality of beer and the licensed trade in general. How amazing then that Ken should advise a successful publican to "seek different employment"

  • Ron 22 July, 2009, 09:27

    It would appear to me Ken that there is absolutely no doubt that Roger knows his stuff, with regards to both beer and the licensed trade. He is obviously very successful, so I do not think he would take your 'advice' and seek alternative employment. After all I do not think your alternative career choice as a pub salesman and 'mentor' is very exciting at the moment- given the horrific financial climate of our industry..

  • ken nason 21 July, 2009, 16:45

    Roger why is it whenever you enter a discussion and you are challenged in any way you resort to disecting the other persons post and isolating words and phrases out of context in an effort to score points. I was quite clear in my use of the word carbination in both contexts. As to what qualifies a person to judge a good pint I think that is quite obvious as it is the customer who decides if it is good or bad regardless of your opinion and if you cannot understand that fundimental point then perhaps you should seek different employment. Ken Nason

  • Da Govnor 21 July, 2009, 16:25

    Ed – In my mind it’s the proper way to do it. I never charge for the ‘last pint’ out and many of my drinkers swear it’s just as good as the first. I also give away the first of the ‘pull off’ during line cleaning to the regulars, as we’re in the City and only open Monday to Friday. I agree it’s done wonders for business, I now turnover 5 times as much ale as the day I walked in. and all it takes is a little thought and a small loss on GP; which compared to the increased sales, doesn’t bother me one bit. I like the idea of ‘bottling’ take away too, as there is often a gallon or so left on Fridays, and the ‘other half’ is getting wise to my usual ‘well it’s a shame to throw it away, I may as well as make a dent in it’ attitude!!

  • DA Govnor 21 July, 2009, 16:15

    Roger – You are playing into his hand a bit! I don’t actually believe there are many ‘qualifications’ for judging a good pint. We as ‘Professionals’ as you rightly point out, take great care in providing only the best; however even with the best will in the world, we can’t be prefect to all the people all the time, it’s impossible. Take for example CAMRA, I’ve been to many of their ‘festivals’ (and some at Pubs) where I was served pints I wouldn’t allow through my lines; never mind serve them to paying customers. But their members stood about chuntering away about how wonderful it was? It’s simply a matter of taste, so I find it best to listen to the customer and recommend what I believe they will prefer, that doesn’t mean the other beers are ropey, I just find it more profitable to point them in a direction they want to go. That said, there is a noticeable change during the service of a cask too and we must appreciate that and allow for comments without leaping to the beers and our defence to heavy handedly!

  • Biggles 21 July, 2009, 14:26

    Roger, Biggles believes in the old fashioned way, the customer is always right or as Walt Disney said ( & he knew a thing or two about customers dont you agree) "the customer may not always be right but they are still the customer".What qualifies me as a judge on beer quality is somewhat simplistic, "the pound in my pocket" and where I chose to spend it. Now answer the question , where is your pub

  • roger sanderson 21 July, 2009, 13:59

    You're quite right Biggles. Mine is a very welcoming and fun pub. Lots of intelligent conversation, humour, a great craick and superb beer. I learned a long time ago that to preserve that special atmosphere and appeal a publican has to be proactive in weeding out the various categories of "pub-clearers" - i.e. the kind of customer that all others want to avoid at all costs.

  • roger sanderson 21 July, 2009, 11:22

    Could the poster wishing to be known as 'Biggles', having demonstrated zero knowledge of the subject, please explain quite what he feels qualifies him to act as an informed judge of any pub's beer quality. As for "mystery" customer, surely the flying helmet, goggles and Mayoral Chain of Office would be a give-away!

  • Biggles 21 July, 2009, 08:40

    Roger, yours sound a real fun and welcoming pub to imbibe within. You can't beat forward customer-facing service quality. Where are you so we can all come and learn from you and enjoy a brew, we wont comment on it, promise.

  • roger sanderson 20 July, 2009, 17:49

    Let's get this right Ken. I posted "The relevance of temperature impacts upon the carbonation of the beer and its taste profile (and in the case of cask beer - its conditioning in the cellar)." You then challenged that by posting "Cask ale and temperatue has nothing to do with carbonation which is the introduction of co2 after the brewing and pasteurising process". There is no failing to comprehend what you have posted, Ken - it is just plain wrong.

  • roger sanderson 20 July, 2009, 11:53

    I really don't like this idea of imagining the customer has got anything to offer the publican in terms of quality control. If a publican is truly professional, understands the science of beer, knows all the factors which determine the perfect pint - then it is he who should be the quality controller of his beers. It should not be a lottery as to whether the customer's pint is right - with us nervously waiting his approval. I'm all for offering free tastings for a customer to try a new beer, but not in the context of the customer has one to "see whether the Pedigree is OK tonight". We should know before it reaches the customer's lips that every pint served, first till last, is perfection. And so the customers role should be limited to handing over his money and enjoying his pint with the absolute assurance it's spot on.

  • ken nason 20 July, 2009, 10:19

    Roger Roger, in your usual rush to question everything I post in an attempt to draw conclusions to my professional abilities you again totally fail to comprehend what I have posted preferring to put your own viewpoint. I quite precicely defined the use of the use of "carbination" purely as the artificial introduction of Co2 after the brewing process and as such the affect of tenperature. My points regarding storage and serving temperatures on cask ales is correct as it is it's affect on the yeast llfespan and speed of fermentation that is important as this is what defines the production of natural Co2.It is the control of this process that is the cellermans art which is why keg beer husbandry is not usually a problem to someone with a modicum of training rather than a "feel for cellermanship". Ken Nason

  • Biggles 20 July, 2009, 09:23

    Roger, Biggles would like to attend your boozer as a mystery shopper to sample your goods. Where is your pub so I can fly over to it. After the sampling I will make myself known and give you a score out of 10 on your beer.Cannt wait.

  • roger sanderson 17 July, 2009, 15:36

    Ken Nason, I really do despair if your post represents the standard of knowledge you have as an ex-publican. I hope you do not pass this misinformation on to clients. You do not understand the word 'carbonation' - it refers to the CO2 content of a product - not just the process of injecting CO2 into pasteurised beers. You say that temperature has nothing to do with carbonation. Wrong! It has EVERYTHING to do with it. It is one of the fundamental laws of physics: temperature controls the compression of a gas held in a solution. The compression of CO2 in any beer is a major influence on taste. Hence: wrong temperature = wrong gas compression = wrong taste sensation. This applies to any carbonated product e.g. beer, cola, tonic water - any publican should know that for heaven's sake! The secondary fermentation (which produces CO2) of a cask beer in the cellar will not take place correctly if the temperature is not right. ALL beers produce CO2 during the primary and secondary processes. Pasteurised beers (which, of course, do not undergo a secondary fermentation) are additionally artificially carbonated at the brewery. But if they are not chilled and served at the correct tempertature thay will not maintain the correct carbonation which adversely impacts on the customer's taste sensation. I hope this assists your understanding. Does Biggles have anything useful to add which might assist publicans in serving the perfect pint?

  • Ed Davies 17 July, 2009, 14:27

    Da Gov - well done sir, we do that if it's the last pint ! We do offer a top up when we put it on the bar - as most of the people round here like a good head on it but not everyone. We also encourage people to try free samples, it's done wonders for the business! We also do take-away ale in sterilised 4-pint milk cartons (sterilise with baby-bottle sterilising tablets) - proves popular with drivers and campers!

  • Steve W 17 July, 2009, 11:54

    Ultimately, it doesn't really matter what we say the beer should be like; surely it matters most what your customers want? I'm not saying you have to have 'bad' beer because customers want it! Or that you can't ignore comments from people who obviously have little knowledge but people vote with their feet and if you serve poor quality ale then you'll soon know about it. I'll go further than another poster and suggest that, in my own experience, only around 5% of pubs serving ales get it right.

  • Da Govnor 17 July, 2009, 11:16

    Ken – My way around 'cellar haze' is to get the ‘young folk’ to buy ‘one in hand’ and reverse my personal process mentioned earlier; stick it in the fridge for a short time. They seem to like it? There again, it does make me smirk that once handed it, they hold it until it’s finished, thereby warming it beyond it’s original temperature – Oh, the youth of today!

  • ken nason 17 July, 2009, 11:04

    Cask ale and temperatue has nothing to do with carbonation which is the introduction of co2 after the brewing and pasteurising process. All of cask conditioned ales and beers attain their co2 from the natural fermintation and secondry fermentation processes. The temperature ranges for cask ales are to obtain the optimum yeast action which acts upon the flavour and maturation of the beer. Chilling cask beers will cause a protein haze which has been one the biggest obsticles of producing cask ales for a generation with a cold pallette. Ken Nason

  • Ben 17 July, 2009, 10:25

    Why should Roger name his establishment - I certainly woudn't , it is personal and has nothing to do with anyone else. After all I am sure he would not want unsolicited visits from licensed property agents..

  • Da Govnor 17 July, 2009, 09:19

    Ed/Joe – I actually go one further and actively ask my customers if their pint is OK. I had 2 very young couples in yesterday lunchtime consulting their Good Beer Guides in my upstairs bar. I was so surprised to find them with an ale in hand each I spoke with them; I laughed when I discovered they’d all ordered the Sussex Best and sent over a couple of tasters from the other pumps on. They where still there at 5 O’clock supping happily, I then sent them to the only pub in walking distance that I consider a fine pint; popping around later for a pint myself, guess who were still entrenched in the corner and yes, they insisted on buying me one too! Taking time to bother and listen to your customers certainly pays off. On a finer point; who knows who is an amature, I don’t advertise the fact I’m in the trade when I arrive, but if the ale isn’t up to scratch, I will tell them, the excuses you here sometimes for poor quality are hilarious, I’ve even been told by a Polish bar ‘supervisor’, that ‘it’s supposed to taste like that’.

  • Biggles 17 July, 2009, 07:28

    Once again Roger, name your pub and we can all do a mystery shopper quaitly control visit.

  • roger sanderson 16 July, 2009, 17:03

    My thanks to Biggles/Joe for his insight into quality control, but I don't think I need any lessons from someone who asks "How can one pint of any keg product be better in one pub as against another?" or who doesn't know why cask ale is served at a higher temperature than lager. As a professional it's my job to know. And the relevant context dictionary definition of 'amateur' is: someone who lacks the necessary skill or knowledge in what they do.

  • Biggles 16 July, 2009, 16:29

    Roger, how annoying having customers trying to tell you what they want and that possibly your ale is not up to scratch.Being an amateur doesn't mean that you don't know how to do something, just that you don't get paid to do it. Let's know where your boozer is and we will be the judge. I agree with Da Govnor, far to many amateurs behind bars these days. Chin Chin.

  • Joe the Publican 16 July, 2009, 08:42

    Roger , to the contrary, I encourage my customers to discuss the products , how they are kept and served, its a healthy relationship and I don't feel threatened by their enthusiasm and knowledge.

  • Ed Davies 15 July, 2009, 19:32

    I've found it to be an easy USP - a bit of care in the cellar (always open for inspection unless very busy), well looked after ale can be worth £3 a pint. For me when I'm out, staff knowledge adds value to the pint - if they can recommend one or at least know the colour of the ale I'm happier than one who says 'its brown'.

  • Da Govnor 15 July, 2009, 16:23

    Roger – Seems are posts crossed and are aim is the same! Though I believe Biggles has a point; sadly far to many ‘amatures’ are now behind bars trying to ‘knock out’ ale! In the last month or so, my pub being a winter place and this being my time for going on my ‘local tour’, I have come across only 6 out of about 80 pubs who served a pint I believed worth the money, and I’ll pay a premium for a decent pint without complaint.

  • Da Govnor 15 July, 2009, 16:16

    Biggles – The correct temperature for ale (11- 13 degrees), it gives maximum flavour, a bit I suppose like red wine (wouldn’t know myself, I won’t drink the stuff)!! If chilled the taste is ‘duller’ you taste the ‘cold’ rather than the skilfully crafted ingredients which make the ale individual. Secondary chilling is being reduced to ale, I suspect in the main be those who don’t have the skill to serve it correctly and will ‘get away’ with a ropey pint at a reduced temperature, if I’m ever served one, I’ll give the Pub the benefit of the doubt (some cellars are cold, let it warm slightly and then drink it. If it’s fine, I’ll continue the evening drinking ‘one in hand’, if not it’ll go back and the establishment won’t see me again.

  • roger sanderson 15 July, 2009, 15:37

    Couldn't agree more Da Govnor. The perfect pint of cask-conditioned beer is a real art and requires considerable skill to accomplish. All quite straightforward but attention to detail is the key. As for Biggles comment about tepid cask beer, he would need to talk to a brewer about the science of that but essentially cask-conditioned beer should be served at a lip temperature of 54°F (the same as the cellar temperature) compared to typically 42-44°F for most keg products and 36-38°F for products such as Carling Cold and Guinness Extra Cold. So, cask-conditioned beer will naturally taste 'warmer' than highly-carbonated pasteurised beers. The relevance of temperature impacts upon the carbonation of the beer and its taste profile (and in the case of cask beer - its conditioning in the cellar). It's all very interesting - but there's nothing more irritating to a publican than having customers trying to tell him his job. I therefore try to discourage amateurs.

  • Da Govnor 15 July, 2009, 15:09

    roger – And that only covers Kegs. Great Cask, which I think Biggles isaiming at can take a great deal more. Racking, tapping and venting times come in to the equation more than anything. The artl of knowing what you may need in 2/3 days, whether it’s; pay day, somebody’s birthday, if the Darts Team’s opposition are all ale drinkers or your local CAMRA Branch is out wandering the manor that week.

  • Biggles 15 July, 2009, 14:42

    Lets just say Mr Sanderson, that Biggles is a "gifted amateur" in these matters, but he knows a good pint when he has one , be it out of a barrel pulled by muscle & gravity or out of a keg by way of gas. My biggest gripe is temperature, why oh why does real ale have to be tepid. By the way Mr Sanderson, do you run a boozer and if so which one so that I may mossy down and try a brew or two of yours. Toddle pip.

  • roger sanderson 15 July, 2009, 13:48

    I assume Biggles has never run a pub. Pristine pipes, pristine glasses, nucleated glasses, cool & dry glasses, correct cellar temperature, correct python temperature, corrcet flash-chiller temperature for Carling Cold, correct stock rotation to ensure product is well within its best-before date, correct pour technique. That's why a keg product can be perfection in one pub and hideous in another.

  • Phil Jones 15 July, 2009, 12:49

    Biggles - Glassware, and how clean it is, can have a huge effect too, as can temperature. I agree that cleaning pipes is the big one though.

  • Biggles 15 July, 2009, 09:50

    Still to many pubs offering 2nd or even 3rd rate pints of real ale at premium prices. It's not rocket science keeping and serving a good pint. Local pub to me where the landlord recons that his customers tell him that he has the best pint of CBL in the town,Probably the only one who cleans his pipes I would guess.How can one pint of any keg product be better in one pub as against another?

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